Transcript – Excerpt from The BJJ Foxcast Episode 87 with Scott Burr
The interviewer is Alex Martinez
About 46 minutes in.
SB: I’ve had some interesting conversations with people. For whatever reason, I end up in these conversations with people who are like in their 40s, and they just got their black belt, and what I’ve sort of observed is that they’re really torn because, on the one hand, they really want to represent their rank, yeah, and they really feel like they’re supposed to represent their Rank, and on the other hand they’re saying, “It’s not a no-brainer to just go balls to the wall with some purple belt now, right? And if I start, and, you know, if I get hurt, it takes longer to heal, and I don’t get to train as much as I used to because I have a job and I have kids”.
So they’re saying like, “What is my responsibility to my rank, and then what is my responsibility to myself?” and I’ve basically ended up telling a few people that, you know, your time is your own, your energy is your own, if you’re going to …
Like, rolling is a bargained for exchange. Yeah right, I’m going to put myself at risk, basically. I’m going to expend time and energy, and I can do those things, um, with a community mindset, right? Meaning, okay, it’s good for the white belts and the blue belts if I roll with, for, them, but I also should be thinking about, “What am I, why am I, doing this?” You know, it’s kind of that “What’s in it for me?” thing.
Just in that you know you are giving a lot, and if you just keep giving a lot, like, and I found this for myself, if you just keep giving a lot and you just, like, anybody who says “You want to roll?” You say, well I can’t say no, so, “Okay, let’s go.”
You do that over and over again, and the thing is, behind that blue belt there’s another blue belt, and behind that blue belt there’s a purple belt, and behind that purple belt there’s a white belt, and behind there’s an ocean of people stretching off into the horizon.
The phrase I’ve started using is, “I know why you want to roll with me, why do I want to roll with you?”
What, like you’re asking me to put myself at risk, you’re asking me to take my time, energy, knowledge, and potential, you know, put myself potentially in harm’s way, uh, what am I getting in exchange for that?
Yeah, right, I’m not obligated to roll with every single idiot with $20 and a pulse, which is the other reason I closed the gym.
Because like if you have a gym and you’re the head instructor, any idiot with $20 and a pulse who walks in the door, I mean you can have your mat enforcer or whatever, but like there’s kind of a vibe, of like “No, you need to give me your business card.” You know, there’s more to my life than that, right? I’m worth more than that. Yeah, so I don’t. I have to respect myself enough that I don’t just put myself in front of every oncoming car.
You know what I mean, like, you want to talk about self-defense, that’s a dumb strategy. Yeah, and I think that’s I think that’s true for any kind of transactional relationship, right? You know you don’t tell a guy [next to you on] a plane your personal life, right? It’s the same thing, man.
Interviewer: Yeah, like you said, 20 bucks and a pulse, man, pay a mat fee and I want to go with a black belt. Hey, good luck with that. Man, you know yeah that’s interesting, I like the way you put it, like, you know it’s your time, energy, harm’s way, all that stuff, all the things we need to consider, because recovery is getting harder and harder, right? So, you’ve got to get more out of your rolls than you used to.
SB: Yeah, well, and I often say this, because the flip side of it is, it’s not okay. in a perfect world we’d have Infinite Energy, we’d have infinite time, we’d have infinite tolerance for going to war on the mat, and we would say yes to every single challenge, Okay?
But the Practical reality for most of these guys is the unspoken thing they’re saying when they say these things to me, is, “Am I going to be able to keep doing this?” And they’re starting to think, “Maybe I’m not. Maybe I just can’t hang anymore,” and so, if we are in a sport, and a culture, and a community where we keep losing our elders and our senior people with knowledge, What future do we really have?
So, just for the sake of thinking about the good of the community, we have to think about how we keep those people in the community.
Interviewer: Yeah, right.
SB: I mean I don’t think I’m telling Tales out of school here, but like Steve [Maxwell], at one point Steve and I at one point had a long conversation, because he was a monster through his 40s, monster well into his 50s, and then he got near 60, and he got into his 60s, and he’s you know he’s a 60-year old man. Yeah, and he’s a badass, and he’s in incredible shape, and he’s full of knowledge, but he’s not a 25 year old who’s just gonna go apeshit with no concern for the consequences. And so, he’s walking into gyms all over the world and people see him, and they go, “Oh, here’s my chance to tap a sixth degree. What if I did well against a sixth degree what if I …?”
Yeah, and he’s saying “Maybe I just can’t be part of Jiu-Jitsu anymore.”
Whoa, dude, if somebody like you [Steve Maxwell] feels like the community is pushing them out, there’s something wrong with that Community
I don’t, even if there’s no authority, even if there’s nobody who’s saying, “Okay, you can’t be on the island anymore,” if the way the culture is going is making you feel like you got to leave the island, dude, that culture is doomed.
Yeah, okay, so one of the simple things, is, you know, remember that, if you’re giving something, you ought to … Like, you’re taking time away from your kids, you’re taking time away from your job, you’re taking time away from your wife, you’re taking time away from other things you could be doing. Don’t give it to any jackass who asks for it, your time is valuable, it’s valuable inherently, and it’s valuable in that you’ve spent however many years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, to get this knowledge in this black belt.
Don’t tolerate people who want to treat you like a piece of exercise equipment, or a punching bag. You don’t owe them your time and energy, right? So that’s a long-winded way of maybe justifying saying no to a roll. [laughs]
When I say that, you know what I mean, but I think for your own health and sanity, and your own safety, and the good of the community at large, it’s what has to happen, you know?
So that’s why I say like I go into one of these rooms, and if anybody wants to like roll with me, like, I’m either going to have something that I know I want to get from this, even if you don’t know you’re giving it to me, or I’m probably not going to do it, because the other thing is, like, I went through way too many rolls, like, sort of toward the end of running that gym, I went through way too many rolls where we clapped hands, we started, and it was like I realized, “Oh, okay we’re doing this again. like okay, now I got to beat you, and the reward is that I get to beat you again, and the reward is that I get to beat you again, …”
I’m getting nothing from this and you just are so full of pep and it’s so exciting to [think], “Oh, maybe when I pull the lever this time I’ll get a jackpot,” they go. I don’t want to, my time and energy are worth more than this, I have other things I could be doing, I have my life that I could be giving this time and energy to, and instead I’m giving it to you who clearly wants to take something from me, in a very selfish way.
Why am I serving you?
Yeah so, but I also realized like, maybe that means I’m not supposed to run a gym anymore, so I don’t know.
Interviewer: No, man, I got chills when you were talking, because I get that from a lot of my, I got a couple brown belts that, you know, and they have a history, man, one of them was a high school, college and professional wrestler, so he’s never had a chance to really take care of his body. And he’s knocking on the door of 50 if he’s not 50 already, and he’s just looking at me, like, “I don’t think I can do this anymore” and I’m going to share this with him because what you just dropped is huge, man, because there’s a lot of people my age…
You know, I’m lucky, man, like Athletics is something that I loved all my life, but I was fortunate that I was undersized at a later age you know, in high school. I was under, I couldn’t play football, okay, I was too little, so all the knees and shoulders and elbows that could have happened never happened, cuz I was a swimmer and then when I got in the military I did a lot of stupid things with my body, but no major injuries, I never required a surgery. I had my first surgery in my 40s, the only bones I’ve broken are fingers and toes, so I don’t know what he’s going through. My friend John’s going through stuff, I mean, dude, if you watch some of his pro wrestling stuff, it’s amazing he’s still walking, right? And we’re talking fused and you know all this other stuff, right, so you’re absolutely 100% right, he’s invested so much of his life into grappling, he’s got to get something out of it.
Right now Jiu-Jitsu is good for him and his presence on the mat is good for other students. If he leaves, that’s two negatives. Yeah, so, how does he create an environment where he stays on the mat until he’s 60, 70, 80, right?
SB: We need to figure out as a culture, we went through all this time post UFC, Jiu-Jitsu culture of weeding people out, yeah, and now we need to figure out how to keep people in, because, you know, yeah, like I said, we keep losing our elders, we don’t have a future.
Interviewer: are you the only one talking about this?
SB: I don’t know, I mean, I haven’t listened to everything or talked to everybody, but I haven’t heard this.
Interviewer: Man, no one talks about this, no I think you need to talk about this more, man, cuz it’s powerful what you’re saying, cuz you started martial arts at a much younger age than I, and with the experience and all the stuff you put your body through, like, I feel stupid asking you that question, I really do, because I didn’t know this about you right, I didn’t know how you felt about this, and I didn’t know how much you put your body through. I just don’t know, but in hearing this, I’m going to be much more careful how I ask questions, and how I talk to people. This is a huge education for me.
SB: What specifically? The one where you turn off the teacher, and turn on the shark?
Interviewer: because yeah, no, but I feel, stupid is a wrong word, I’m glad I asked the question because I wouldn’t have got this otherwise, but this kind of exchange of knowledge like you know you talked about earlier we don’t know where the conversation is going.
I got chills, dude, you know what I mean, It’s awesome, I love it man, I love it, Believe It or Not.
So I’ve got John, yeah, and then I’ve got another friend who’s also one of my brown belts. and he’s knocking on the door of a black belt, he’s 56 years old, and we’re talking, this guy played college football at a super high level, and he will never say it, but everybody that knows him from back then will say that he probably could have gone pro, right? And it’s very rare, but he’s had an amazing life, he’s a great guy, you know he’s influenced a lot of people, and he’s the one, every other conversation with him, he’s a dear friend, every other conversation is like “I don’t know that I can do this anymore,” and I’m trying to help him. “Hey, let’s find a different path maybe your path is teaching, right? And we can find that path for you.”
But this is going to be so huge, I’m going to share this with a lot of folks, man, because we’re not getting any younger and you’re absolutely right, losing a six stripe that wants to step away because he feels he’s not … ridiculous, oh my God, ridiculous, yeah, and that’s that’s like and one thing that we’re forgetting, especially for Jiu-Jitsu in the United States, our Legends are living, man yeah, we got to take advantage of these guys and and learn you know what I mean learn from them take advantage of their knowledge, and learn from them, keep them around somehow, right and I love I love what you said about the exchange, if I’m going to roll with somebody who’s my senior or my Elder, I’m going to provide something, rather than just take. That’s awesome, dude, that’s awesome, that’s something we got to … I mean I feel that if you’ve got a Jiu-Jitsu Purple belt I think that that person has enough emotional intelligence that they will apply that knowledge if you share it with them, if you ask them to right, because a lot of the, I hate to say this, but a lot of the [ assholes ] are weeded out early you know?
SB: not all of them [both laugh]
Interviewer: Not all of them, there’s a few that slip through the cracks, but most, you know, a good majority of them are because of ego and they can’t handle, not you know the losing part and all of that.
But, uh no, this is I got chills dude, that was awesome.
SB: Well I think there’s another part of that which is, this sounds maybe like I’m ragging on like lower belts and stuff, and I remember, I mean I feel like I can speak to this, because I know that I was that guy on more than one occasion, and it’s there’s so much pressure on you as a lower belt, to feel like you’re being judged constantly by the upper belt, and so you want to show even if you maybe wouldn’t care, you want to show that you can beat that brown belt, you want to show that you can beat that black belt.
So, I think you know part of this, and so, on a cultural level if we start to, because there are plenty of schools that are, I mean we talk generally about this, I don’t know that I’ve ever personally encountered this, but you know we talk about there are schools where it’s all about performance and the rest of it doesn’t matter, and John Danaher says that Jiu-Jitsu isn’t about being a good person, it’s about performing at a high level in a sport.
So there’s that mentality, but if you start to reward, and I think most, many schools do, If you start to reward not only knowledge, not only skill, but also how good a student they are in terms of how helpful are they, how much are they reinvesting in the community, how much are they asking, “How can I be a good partner for the upper belts?”
If those are also the criteria by which advancement happens, then I don’t just see that brown belt as a potential notch in my belt when I’m a purple belt, I see other ways that I, and it’s not about whether or not I’m a good person, it’s about what the leadership is telling me is important to them. Yeah, and I’ll do whatever the leadership tells me is important. So if you introduce those ideas to me, and you tell me what you’re looking for, and I see somebody get chastised for not representing those ideals, and maybe not getting promoted because, like, “Dude, you’re really good, but I think you’re being a dick, so I’m not going to promote you”.
Oh okay, what what was it about that that the professor didn’t like, and, okay, how do I show that I’m not that guy, and how do I … By showing those behaviors, I start to cultivate those behaviors, and I start to become that person.
I mean, that’s the idea of how we mold our students in a positive way, so I’m not so part of, that is to say, I’m not unsympathetic to to why in the culture it may happen like that, but I am maybe saying like, let’s look at the big picture, at the culture in general and see maybe how, because it’s not about bad apples, it’s not about that purple belt is just a jerk, yeah, maybe it’s the purple belt is, what he knows about how we supposed to behave on the mat has been taught to him, we walk on the mat the first day, we don’t know what to do, we don’t know how to stand, we don’t know how to kneel, we don’t know how to tie our belt, we don’t know anything. We’re told what to do, and all the incentive systems, and the uh punishment systems, are what’s going to shape or tell us what course to follow.
Interviewer: it’s a great Point, and yeah it’s always interesting, that Dynamic, especially when you talked about being promoted or not, and the first thing that came to my mind is like, have you ever seen a four stripe blue belt roll after a belt promotion? It’s like a death match, every round’s a death match, but uh then that’s the ego part and that’s the, you know, them trying to prove themselves right, and it’s way more than that, it’s way more than stripes and colors of belt, so yeah know that I love that.